Everyone seems to be talking about what we can do about the terror breeding on paki soil.
While some are sane voices, very rightly saying that war isn't an option, others are given to more passion than pragmatism.
I, as is my wont, like to provide multiple solutions. Some will say, more talk than action, but regretfully, that's the way things are these days.
And here's introducing a new blogger who has the mental range to suggest this, & blog about the voices of reason from the other side as well.
Edit: And since Israel in mentioned in one of the links, does anyone have any views on what they've been doing in Palestine over the last 2 days? Over 200 killed, and I saw a picture of a bleeding child being carried away from the scene in the papers today. How different is this from terrorism?
Your views?
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And since Israel in mentioned in one of the links, does anyone have any views on what they've been doing in Palestine over the last 2 days? Over 200 killed, and I saw a picture of a bleeding child being carried away from the scene in the papers today. How different is this from terrorism?
ReplyDelete- Who *started* it and provoked Israel? Hamas, by firing rockets on to innocent citizens of Israel. Or maybe in your world, only Muslims/Palestinians have innocents, rest all are OK to kill.
- 200 killed. How many of them were Hamas militants?
- Sorry about the picture of bleeding child. Would it make you happy to see a similar picture of a bleeding Israeli child carried in the arms of a mother?
- Were you outraged and criticized Hamas when they launched rockets into Israel with an objective to kill innocents, or was that a "chalta hai" attitude? If you were not outraged and did not criticize Hamas, then why not?
As you ponder over these questions and comments, your own prejudices will start becoming visible to you (I hope), and how in your world-view, you don't feel any sympathy for the innocents killed by one party, but get outraged at the "innocents" killed by the other party. And how you *rationalize* your own prejudices by citing history. Have fun!!!! (-:
I think some of us might be imagining it is macho to talk of war?
ReplyDeleteWar is blood, pain, tears, crying children, tortured POWs, mutilated bodies of unidentified soldiers, homeless villagers ...
There are so many good books and movies that tell us the truth about what actually happens in war. Casualties of War and The Savior are two such movies (and so many more), I like Roald Dahl's books, and I think all those who want war as a solution-to-all-problems must watch and read some more.
The only people who actually seem to benefit from wars are maybe the ruling governments? But did Kargil win elections for the BJP?
kaffir,
ReplyDeleteI don't think you wanted to go into the who started it argument. Look it up on Wiki. It was Israel who in violation of the UN convention, forcibly took the land away from the Palestinians, whose it was to start with.
That stupid act on Israel's part is what created the Hamas. Then they repeated the same thing with Lebanon. And that created the Hezbollah.
All this while they could conduct these military misadventures, because they were backed by the US. And that is just one of the reasons why the Arab world holds the US in such contempt.
Like I said, let's not go into the who started it argument. It'll open up a side discussion, which is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make.
I'm not saying that Hamas & Hezbollah are right. I've never said that. I'm with the rest of the world in branding them as terrorist organizations.
I'm only asking whether what Israel is doing is very different from terrorism?
Why is it so difficult to get the simplest of things across to you kaffir? What strange, twisted ways does your mind work in??
_____________
IHM,
Well made points. If only watching those movies & reading those books would bring about the desired change in those kind of people, we'd have less of the murli manohar types.
"Why is it so difficult to get the simplest of things across to you kaffir? What strange, twisted ways does your mind work in??"
ReplyDelete--
Words have meanings. When you write poorly chosen words, or write not very clearly (including democracy in the list of ideologies, for example), then expect that someone will ask you some questions.
Why does Israel's actions come across as terrorism to you? It's Hamas which hides among civilians and has a clear charter of destruction of Israel. The current nature of warfare makes it impossible that civilians won't die. Israeli civilians also die when Hamas suicide bombers kill them. To expect Israel to carry out an operation with zero civilian casualties when Hamas insists on living amongst civilians and those civilians do nothing to kick Hamas militants out, is unrealistic.
By the way, Israel accepted the UN charter when it was created - it's the other Arab states which refused to recognize that charter, though both Jordan and Egypt have signed peace agreements with Israel since then. And Hamas came into being in 1987, much after the UN charter.
Taali ek haath se nahin bajti. If Israel is guilty of wrong-doings, the other Arab countries and organizations are not innocent either. If they also honestly wanted peace, it would have happened. But it probably serves the purpose of Hamas and other groups to continue this conflict.
kaffir...
ReplyDeleteWhat are you doing following a writer of poorly chosen words? :-)
Anyway, I'm saying the same thing as you are in the last para. The fault lies as much with Israel as the Arabs. So why do we condone Israel's aggression & not the Arabs, some of whom (maybe erronously) believe that they're fighting a war of independence???
Be fair. That's my only request.
Don't unnecessarily pick on one group & paint them black.
If you do I will fight you. On blogs. And the less fortunate ones will with weapons.
What are you doing following a writer of poorly chosen words? :-)
ReplyDeleteSo that you can learn from your mistakes and improve your writing. (-:
Be fair. That's my only request.
Don't unnecessarily pick on one group & paint them black.
Looks like you are the one being unfair and then crying uncle - "ooh, picture of innocent hurt kid - so sad and unfair" - forgetting that Hamas knew very well what the repercussions would be *before* they decided to fire rockets into Israel on Israeli civilians, yet without caring for their fellow Palestinian civilians, they went ahead with their provocation. Why blame Israel for its response and killing of Palestinians when Hamas knew something like this would happen?
If you are so concerned about Palestinians, adopt a few, bring them here and share your house with them.
If you do I will fight you. On blogs. And the less fortunate ones will with weapons.
Ooh, I'm getting scared now.
Wow. Gandhi ka chela so quick to justify fighting with weapons!! So much for non-violence. By the way, "less fortunate ones" exist in all countries. Why don't they all take up arms?
Collateral damage: inadvertent casualties and destruction inflicted on civilians in the course of military operations
ReplyDeleteTerrorism: The calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear
In any war collateral damage is bound to happen, if you read the reports carefully, Israel is attacking all the hamas buildings and civilian lives is a part of the side damage.
Hamas(Islamic Resistance Movement) deliberately attacks the civilian population, rocket hits on kindergarten(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7806736.stm) so by definition that is terrorism
What Israel is doing is condemnable but could you blame them for trying to protect themselves from people who by principle oppose the existence of Israel?
I wont get into the who started argument but at the present situation Israel is doing what any other country would do to protect itself and I would not call it terrorism. They have given peace a chance only to be broken by rocket fires beyond borders.
So, way to go Israel...
I would like to modify my last line:
ReplyDeleteIsrael, NOT the way to go.
It seems an elephant is trampling on the ant nest because a couple of them bit the elephant.
Please visit the following link, it is inhuman, it is manslaughter:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7802295.stm
"There is only enough flour in Gaza to last two weeks unless more supplies are brought in."
"People around the world will be about to celebrate the new year - not here in Gaza.
This is usually a time when people make new plans and have high hopes for the coming year. At the moment the people in Gaza are just hoping they will be alive tomorrow."
kaffir...
ReplyDelete:-)
1. The day I have to learn from illogical, semi-literates like you, it will be a really low point in my life. High point in yours as you've made obvious. Do you notice the difference? :-)
2. The day you can read & understand me, the Sun will rise from the West. You obviously need to understand the unfair reference a lot better.
Why don't you read up about how Israeli aggression created the situation in the Middle East? Maybe poor Israeli civilians are paying for the sins of Israeli leaders. Just as poor Palestinian civilians are paying for the sins of the terrorists on their land.
Your denying it won't change history, will it?
3. The Gandhi-fan, not chela. chela isn't demeaning to me, but to Gandhiji. So I request you to refrain. If your intent is to disrespect Gandhiji, then we must end our very entertaining conversations.
I can put up with an irritating blog-stalker, but I can't stand an anonymous coward speak with disrespect about such a great man.
And oh, this fan isn't justifying violence. I know you get it after the rest of the class does, so here it is once more:
"Less fortunate" refers to those who cannot practise ahimsa.
And the less fortunate ones do exist in all countries & quite a few of them do take up arms. Naxals & sangh-ies in India, the LTTE in Sri Lanka.
Class dismissed. :-)
__________
white_angel,
- Thanks. I wouldn't have used collateral damage if I didn't know what it meant.
That's why WAR is bad.
I am against the lives of young soldiers being laid down for a cause espoused by old politicians.
- It's important to get into the who started it argument.
- Right. Israel is not the way to go.
We need to learn from Israel on how to handle Islamic terrorism. Time for some surgical strikes into Pakistan and POK and get rid of scum.
ReplyDeleteAs for Israel's actions, there's a saying: "sau sunaar ki, ek luhaar ki."
It's time Hamas learns some wisdom and acts accordingly, instead of going around throwing stones at a hornet's nest and then complaining when the hornets come all over and sting them. Action-reaction - as simple as that. Even Gandhi said the same thing - "When a big tree falls, the ground shakes."
"The Gandhi-fan, not chela. chela isn't demeaning to me, but to Gandhiji. So I request you to refrain. If your intent is to disrespect Gandhiji, then we must end our very entertaining conversations."
ReplyDelete--
I neither disrespect nor respect Gandhi - I simply mention the truth. As far as I'm concerned, he was a complex, multi-faceted person who did many great things, and some not so great things. Only discussing all of them honestly does service to him, instead of putting him up on a pedestal and worshiping him, as you seem to be doing. You must've heard about his experiments with his female relatives in his old age - of sleeping naked with 19 year old girl who was his grand-niece. Maybe you should write a post on that. It'll be fun to see your rationalizations about it.
kaffir...
ReplyDeleteWelcome back to class.
1. Allow me to correct you.
"We need to learn from Israel on how to create Islamic terrorism."
They're the ones who started the darned trouble in the first place. FYI. :-)
2. Which Gandhi? Please specify so that your statements leave no room for misinterpretation.
3. Where is the need for me to rationalize it? He's rationalized it already. Read him if you want the rationale behind it. I'll only copy-paste what he's said. :-)
Aaj ke liye yeh teen paaTh bas. Class dismissed.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletekaffir,
ReplyDeleteSorry. I had to delete your comment. You were trying to make this an anti-Congress propaganda thread, when what we're talking about is very different.
Stick to the topic so that I don't have to rap your knucles again.
Kachche khiladi, kamzor tairaak, gehre paani mein na utarni ki chetaavni tumpar zyaada lagoo hotee hai.
Chal abhi. Extra class also dismissed.
Aur baar baar fail hota raha na, toh school se nikaalna parega. Phir paathshaala mein wapas jaana parega. :-D
"We need to learn from Israel on how to create Islamic terrorism."
ReplyDeleteThis statement is bordering on justification for terrorism?????
Looks like not just your knuckles but a lot more got rapped at Vinod's blog. (-:
ReplyDeleteLearn from him on how to write - your posts are half-baked, shallow, knee-jerk reactionary and trite, with minimal analysis.
CAT,
ReplyDeleteNot so. Sorry if it comes across as that. You have always had a rather strange way of looking at things. You see sexist remarks where none are intended; ditto the justification for terrorism thingie.
Just placing facts on the table. If you forcibly take away someone's land, he will fight for it. Very few will be able to go Gandhiji's way, because most people don't have the lofty abilities & virtues that he possessed.
Imagine a scenario where no one espouses the KP cause, ignores it like it never happened, & celebrates the rise of the new state. Would that be a potentially dire situation or not?
_______
Anonymous,
Thanks for your comment.
I've said before that it's a matter of perspective. You can see only what you want to see. The way I see it, Vinod doesn't have a response to my questioning. I've been picking holes in his posts & he's not responded. You must be blind not to see that.
Anyway, thanks for directing people to Vinod's blog. So that they can see for themselves whose knuckles were getting rapped!!!
PS: I don't wanna break your heart, but after getting compliments from senior journalists on my writing, your opinion really doesn't count. :-)
If you believe that I have a strange way of looking at things thats your prerogative .I will continue to view things MY way until I am convinced about a more superior /more rational OTHER way.
ReplyDelete"If you forcibly take away someone's land, he will fight for it. "
And what is the "right" way to fight for it?
Dont even bring the KP into this as an analogy. Since the 1300's they have steadily been reduced to a minority in a land where their ancestors have existed and flourished.
Even though many (some are yet REFUGEES)those who chose to or were forced to leave Kashmir , since 1300's or even 20 years back ,have made a fresh start elsewhere they do not have a place they can call homeland. The erstwhile domiciled KP was not even considered worthy to be a part of the electorate in the recent Kashmir election. SO HOW SHOULD THE KP FIGHT FOR IT?
p.s.I have offered my objection to the said "sexist" comment on more than one occasion and in other places. If you are yet not satisfied (and keep bringing it up) I am ready (cant say gladly)to pick it up again.
CAT,
ReplyDeleteThe "right way"...
I'm no Buddha. I'm no Gandhi. But they among other great men have advocated the "right way".
That could & should be tried. Why not try something that has worked?
Re: to p.s.: We're already engaged in an email exchange on sexist. We could do it there or here. Anywhere is good for me.
who started it doesnt matter because it was done a long time ago. what matters is who doesnt want peace at the moment. The hamas is pathetically launching rockets on civiilian places in israel and have been launching suicide attacks for whole of its history. Israel has no other options left as the hamas is not ready to listen to them. No talks are possible. I support what israel is doing.
ReplyDeleteMaya,
ReplyDeleteWelcome to the Blog.
Can I ask you to read this piece?
The author clearly states a well known fact, that it's Israel who has repeatedly rejected Hamas' peace overtures. Israel doesn't want to go back to the pre-1967 borders.
Just as pakistan doesn't wanna go back to pre-1947 J&K borders.
Israel is like pakistan. First they take our land, then they wage war against us!
There's a limit to things isn't there.
Please do read the article!
PS: You might wanna correct Quentin Tarantino's spelling in your profile. He's one of may favourites as well!!! :-)