Thursday, January 15, 2009

So is the bjp good for anything at all...?

Let us examine that statement.

I have always maintainted that there is use for everything in this World. Purpose, Good, whatever you may want to call it. I have however been extremely hard pressed to see it with the lot this post is about.

I am of course not the first one to condemn them for their gadzillion faults. IHM recently did it, and rather eloquently too; Yaamyn's masterpiece cannot be forgotten even if one tried; & I've done it before, and on more than one ocassion (this one is power-packed with fact-filled links!).
I'm restricting the list of critics to unknown bloggers for now. If we go into the realm of well-known voices who have condemned , their actions or their ideology, this post will start to read like the Who's Who of India & the World! ;-)

So why not the bjp? The answers to that are simple. And many!

1st: Ideology. The bjp is the political front of the rss. All of them are essentially bound together, NOT by a love for the Indian Constitution, but by the ideology of hindutva propounded by savarkar, a little-known freedom-fighter of dubious renown; and therefore bound together by partisan respect for the underachieving savarkar, who's other claim to infamy is allegedly conspiring to kill the Father of the Nation, Gandhiji. This anti-national, contrary to our constitutional values ideology is what drives them. Surely they can't be considered candidates for governing a country as great as ours...?

2nd: They lack Foresight: When Dr. Manmohan Singh & PV Narsimha Rao were opening up India's economy, the perennially wet behind the ears bjp was yelling Swadeshi (a movement they ironically were not part of when it was first used against the British!). And when they came to power, eating humble pie, they simply carried on the implementation of Dr. Manmohan Singh's economic reforms. What does that make them...?

3rd: Hypocrites. As pointed out above. Also as was obvious to all discerning Indians, in the aftermath of the 26/11/2008 attaks on Bombay, despite their leader advani saying that they'd stand politically united against terror, they quickly did an about turn & happily went campaigning in the 5 states that were going to the Assembly polls. And of course, who can forget their soundbytes to the media? Thankfully an awakened Indian electorate & the indignant wife of martyred ATS chief Hemant Karkare, turned them down. What does that make them? Hypocrites AND Opportunistic!

4th: They breed, promote & defend marauders & murderers. A look at what their ideological allies have been up to in Khandmal & Karnataka in 2008, Gujarat in 2002, Ayodhya in 1992 will convince anyone not deliberately wearing blinkers.
They claim to be nationalists when the whole World recognizes them as facists, neo-zionists etc.
What nationalist, Constitutionally compliant, EC code compliant party would use temple building promises or distribute hate CD's(1) as part of their electoral strategy???
Yet another flagrant violation of the aforesaid code can be found here!
It's telling comment on how effete our Election Commission is. Or is our disinterested Judiciary/Executive to blame for not pulling the bjp up? But let me not shift the blame to our not so long an arm of the law, when in fact the real fault lies with these criminals!

5th: They're primarily anti-Congress. Also anti-secular. And anti-communist. Apart from THAT, they don't have any clear agenda for India's growth, development or place in the World order.
They're just blindly against anyone who denies them their Hindu-supremacist dream, and all their machinations & propaganda is targeted against them. So they & their followers have a limited number of hobbies: take open potshots at the so-called Nehru-Gandhi dynasty, and poorly-disguised ones at the likes of Gandhiji & Ambedkar.

So that brings us back to the questions we began this post with? Are they good for anything at all?
Contrary to what most people will think, I believe they are.
They serve a variety of purposes, but chiefly two:
  1. They make us aware of what evil is.
  2. They, with their mostly uncalled for, mostly inaccurate, but persistent criticism, help the Congress iron out the few flaws it has & get it's act together vis a vis their communication.
It prepares us, the citizens that they're supposed to be serving, to deal with their petty machinations.
And it helps the Congress emerge stronger & better equipped to govern India. A nation with a record for progressive, equitable thinking & living, demands that a party with similar people assist in governing it!

So there you have it. The bjp does serve an important two-fold purpose. It keeps us aware of the dangers of right-wing thinking, and it keeps India's sole hope for a sane mainstream political party, on it's toes. It's a job they do well (if we can call it that!) & they should be allowed to do that as long as they serve that purpose. Don't get me wrong! By no stretch of imagination are they a scrupulous bunch! They deserve to be hauled up everytime they break the law! But speaking strictly of politics, they enjoy opposing everything, and do so with single-minded dedication.
For those reasons & the ones mentioned above, they genuinely deserve to be in the opposition. They're apt for the job.
What would be interesting of course is to watch whether the other fringe/partisan/local players (like the sena) or other non-centred players (like the Left), take the battle to be the main opposition party, seriously enough or not.

You may have noted that I've softened my stance a little bit. I've gone from wishing the almost complete demise of the bjp to acknowledging that every voice in a democracy needs to be at least heard. And because of democratic considerations, I'm not only OK with the bjp's existence, I'm even glad! May they ALWAYS sit in the opposition!

There! That should make a few people happy! ;-)


  1. They are good for one thing for sure , riling you up . :D No offense intended man . :)

  2. None taken Kislay. Not from you. :-)

    But on a serious note.... what do you think?

  3. The problem with them sitting in the opposition is that they lower the bar for everyone else. So people will vote against them for anything or anyone- corrupt and incompetent as they be.

  4. @lankr1ta,


    Which is why I want to see some action from the BSP & the Left. Let's see them give the bjp a fight to be in the opposition. What a wonderful place this country would be if we had a pro-lib Congress Govt. at the Centre with the Left & the BSP in the opposition calling for social equality, with the bjp relegated to a 2 seat minority like the ML!!! :-)

  5. I'm not only OK with the bjp's existence, I'm even glad! May they ALWAYS sit in the opposition!...

    Great line and I complete agree....
    Out of the two evils, I would rather go with Congress....
    but one interesting thing that I like about BJP is their claim for a uniform civil code which Congress does not support....
    But as you say, I cannot side with BJP because of their ideology... as simple as that....
    what do you think about a uniform civil code...I believe that the gov needs to treat us as Indians first (above any thing else)...
    and at times, Congress does seem to pander to the "Minority Groups" :P

  6. Well I would so like that myself icon!
    But the BJP is scary because they are so far right they are that side of wrong. No one evokes hatred for other people like these people do. Not the BSP, not the corrupt ones, but the BJP, heck they are haters.

  7. 1conoclast it is not possible (though I wish it was) that they will never win, I saw Ambani supporting Modi in the News and - it seems the voters don't mind his (and his party's) attitude towards minorities, so long as he makes some of them richer.

    And I agree with Alankrita above that they aren't the best opposition party either.

    I think any kind of preaching of hatred and violence should be firmly dealt with. We don't need political parties that fight elections to save our religion(s)- that should be reason enough for Election Commission to act.

    I also strongly disapprove of their deceit and hypocrisy.

  8. I agree with you...A lot of people want Modi to be the next PM - I think he'll be bad for the country is he does become the PM...His economic policies may have benefitted Gujarat but he is still a member of the BJP and who can forget the 2002 riots...The Congress may be communal too but at least they don't state it openly...

  9. I hope for a day when all parties with primary ideology as religion or caste is banned. BJP or Muslim league or DMK or any such parties. They thrive on exploiting sentimental people. Us Indians are emotional by nature and manipulation is an easy tool used by all parties.

    An irony that from the land of Gandhi we have a Modi.

  10. Ajit,

    Yes. The truly are India's greatest politico-social EVIL!

    My views on the UCC are simple. I'm all for Equality, but we need to be treated not as Indians but as Humans (above anything else). Right?

    As for pandering to minority groups, I think that is just an accusation. For 2 reasons:
    1. You Ajit, are also minority welfare I'm assuiming. If you do something for the minorities, does it mean you're "pandering" to them? If you are doing it out of the goodness of your heart, then why not them?
    2. If minority pandering was such an issue, why would the Congress consistently be able to garner about 50% of the voter share? 60% before the petty politics & slandering began.

    Your turn. :-)


    Yes. One can only wish it harm. I think it's time for a Krishna to arise & slay it. Haven't we already forgiven it's hundred sins?


    I've maintained & expressed earlier that corporates are hardly the place to find goodness of heart or moral rectitude. They're driven by profit.

    I have an interesting theory on anil ambani though, which I'll share in my next post shortly. :-)

    Er... WE have to act. The Election Commission or any commission has shown that they're capable of bringing up the issue & that's about it. We have to push the Judiciary! Citizens Awake!


    More on the truth about gujarat's economics etc. in a forthcoming post. For now can I remind people that Germany made massive strides economically under hitler. If you take an extremist all-out-approach, no holds barred approach to development, sure you'll get results. Satyam adopted the no-holds-barred approach. Where did it get either nazi Germany or Satyam?
    The key is Dr. Manmohan Singh's brand of development. Aggressive yet well-thought out, moderate & inclusive.


    Not ironical. Deplorable. Ironical that he belongs to the bunch that plotted to kill Gandhiji! But you already know that I'm sure!

  11. hey iconoclast,
    I dont have any arguments to back up my claim :P
    but that is the feeling that I get .... :)
    and yes, they are doing a lot to uplift the downtrodden....... :)
    I use the word "downtrodden" and not minority :)
    coz, I believe that the gov needs to teach a man to fish... not give him fish for every meal...
    somehow, I get the feeling that the congress is doing that.... (but anyways, it is much better than BJP).... :)
    (am with you on that one).....

  12. Dear 1conoclast,

    While I pass off your article as strong and filled with facts that deserve to be slapped on the BJP's face, I suggest you re-assess your opinion of the Congress.

    Your entire piece comes down to this one line by Bones in the comment above:-
    The Congress may be communal too but at least they don't state it openly...
    WOW! So they have the license to be communal while if the BJP even mentions the term "Hindu", then extremist/communalist/one-sided expletives are showered upon them.

    The Congress is making a fool of us. They are open in their support of minorities in India. The PM's statement that "Muslims have a first right on the nation's resources", Haj subsidies etc clearly confirm that the Congress has carried forward the British raj's divide-n-rule idea of governance. Keep the minorities happy at the expense of the majority - that is the Congress mantra.

    Why wasn't Antulay sacked? Why isn't Afzal Guru hanged? Why wasn't SIMI banned? Why does the government leave us week-kneed against terrorism? Why does Rahul Gandhi (your so-called beacon of hope, who at the expense of the public attended only 5 Lok sabha debates) side with the Congress high command even on such issues? Why isn't migration of Bangladeshis in the east being checked?

    Because it's the Congress that is as communal as the BJP and worse, hungry for minority votes although the BJP has also done this in the past. The BJP's failings in 2004 have been well understood by party planners of the Congress who all, in a show of sycophancy, side with every word that Sonia Gandhi says.

    Coming to riots, look at the number of commissions put in place and the number of times that Congress governments interfered to silence them. The same as the BJP, aren't they? Or they deserve to be excused for killing a few thousand Sikhs? [Link]

    And look at the way you are justifying minority "pandering". "Do something for the minorities AT THE EXPENSE OF THE MAJORITY, is it? So we all are humans first, and not Indians. This means a person from a minority is special and the majority needs to sit back quietly and accept whatever is given to him. Or in case of subsidies, NOTHING.

    I wouldn't have said anything at all, 1conoclast, as I believe that despite your one-sided views, the above is all the truth. Until I read this -> What a wonderful place this country would be if we had a pro-lib Congress Govt. at the Centre with the Left & the BSP in the opposition calling for social equality, with the bjp relegated to a 2 seat minority like the ML!!! :-)

    By God, 1conoclast. It's ok to be biased. But it's outrageous to claim that a Left/BSP should hold the second majority seats after the Congress. The Left that has traditionally betrayed India with their communist ideology and pro-China thinking. Remember the way they defended China against Tibet? Helped by The Hindu...

    The second -> one of India's fastest growing but openly corrupt parties recently in the news for some more disgusting acts.

    Why is the Congress opposing a uniform civil code, dear 1con? Why is it that only the BJP has supported it. If the BJP was pure evil, dont you think they would wants "reservations" in the code for Hindus? While the Congress, allowing all minorities the freedom they want, openly celebrate personal laws.

    I'll conclude by saying that although the BJP is no source of goodness for us, at least let us not blatantly give the Congress a clean chit for all their wrongdoings BECAUSE THE CONGRESS IS EQUALLY COMMUNAL. For me, if the talking about Hindus is communal then event talking about Muslims IS. And it's the Congress that exploits this.

    And most of us, driven by the "beautiful agenda" of seeing the Crown Prince(also aided by the mainstream media) take the throne of the PM purely on the basis of dynasty as he has hardly done anything commendable. Someone like Arun Shourie is much, much better than Rahul Gandhi.

    To finish it off, i'd just say that before the routine branding of me and my comments as Sanghi/RSS/VHP/BJP/communal/anti-Indian/anti-secular/Rightist/extremist takes place, a request to be objective about both sides of the coin.

    Let's take the best of both and the worst of none for a better India.


    And yes, I'm not Hindu by religion. And I'm religious too. :-)

  13. On a lighter note, BREAKING NEWS:-


    Cheers ;-)

  14. Ajit,

    Is getting the downtrodden to go to school or to get jobs equal to teaching them to fish?
    They're not being given rice-packet handouts everyday as if they were in a refugee camp, are they?


    1. This post isn't about the Congress. It's a response to bjp-supporters, a warning to truly nationalist Indians. If I were to write a post dedicated to the ills of the Congress, trust me it would be an as fair assessment. If you've been around the blog, you'll find indictments of the Congress where they have failed.

    2. Bones' POV is not my POV. And your oversimplified assessment of this post isn't accurate. Bones may find the Congress communal, but I think you'll find my stand in my response to Ajit. Discuss THAT if you wanna discuss MY stand!
    The bjp on the other hand isn't indicted for mentioning Hindu. The bjp is communal for buying into & furthering hindutva. I trust I don't have to explain to you what that term means in it's entirity?

    3. Minority-Minority-Minority... you're sounding like a broken bjp record. I've addressed this above to Ajit. Please refer to that. And then let's discuss it.

    4. Antulay expressed his opinion. Does that deserve a sacking? Is sacking the instant response/only punishment/kneejerk reaction that everyone should adopt? Do good organizations sack people for expressing their opinion or dissent? You work for a good organization. You know that!!
    Is hanging the best solution for all criminals?
    Please understand that the Congress & all those who vote for them (the majority community included) are Moderates. They are nto kneejerk, they're not extremist, they're not gung-ho about capital punishment & they don't believe in sacking being the instant cure. They're a bunch of people who like to think before they act. And when they act, they do so with grace. They're led by Gandhain thought rather than hitler's.

    The SIMI IS banned I thought. That they're not is news to me. Can you get me a link that shows me that the SIMI isn't banned?

    If you read my post carefully, you'll notice that I'm only using the terminology attributed to Rahul. It's in mock-sarcasm that I've used it. Did you miss that? Or that fact that I've criticised the trust for not having the grace to leave the bedding behind. Missing all of that isn't easy... Are you by any chance viewing me with coloured glasses?

    The migration of Bangladeshis is a problem but the migration of Tibetans & Nepalis isn't? If you can explain the selective screaming on this issue, maybe we can discuss this issue further.
    Maybe it's because the Congress doesn't see a difference between Tibetans, Nepalis & B'deshis, while the bjp does see a difference between them. Maybe because the bjp is anti-Muslim, while the Congress is just pro-everyone?

    4.1 Yes, I'd like the Congress to be a little firmer on certain issues. I'd like them to have pulled up bal thakre a long time back. If they'd have done that we possibly wouldn't have seen 1992 or 1993. And we wouldn't have seen raj thakre in 2008.
    Yes they should've dealt with Deshmukh's ineptitude a long time back.
    But the last action-oriented, hard-nosed, iron-fisted leader that the Congress had was Indira Gandhi. And you guys found her too tough. CAN YOU DECIDE ONCE & FOR ALL WHETHER YOU WANT TOUGH OR MODERATE???

    And then, if you research this following information enough, you'll find that the Congerss suspended bhagat, tytler & sajjan kumar from all party posts as long as the case was going on against them. It subsequently denied them tickets.

    The Congress denied PV N Rao a ticket, apparently for his failure to contain the babri mess & the ensuing riots.

    The Congress has a record of censuring it's erring members.

    IN CONTRAST, THE bjp PORTRAYS IT'S ERRING MEMBERS, to use a euphemism of the highest degree, NOT ONLY TO CONTEST, BUT LEAD PARTIES!!!


    4.2 I think you need to understand the word Communal a little better. If a bunch of Hindus caters to the concerns of other communities, then it's not communalism by any stretch of imagination. It may be deemed Socialist at best!
    When another group of Hindus caters only to the concerns of Hindus, THAT IS COMMUNAL!
    Hopefully you understand communalism better now & will refrain from calling the Congress communal. Call it by any other name, but don't throw untrue allegations at it! That's my only request!

    4.3 Following the party leader is Sycophancy or Discipline? Please answer me that.
    (Please note that I am not drawing parallels as far as I can help it in this rebuttal. Otherwise you know as well as I do that each of the allegations you've thrown the Congress' way apply in far greater measure to the bjp!)

    5. Riots: I will admit that my knowledge is incomplete on this subject. My research on the net has only thrown up stuff that completely exonerates the Congress' leadership of any wrongdoing. hkl bhagat was held guilty by one court & then not by another. he never held a position in the Congress as long as he was alive.

    If you believe that there were multiple commissions involved that put the blame sqarely on Rajiv's head, please give me a link. Like I gave you a link to Tarun Tejpal's team's exhaustive analysis of Godhra.

    Nobody deserves to be excused. Go through my blog. In a previous post titled "why the bjp deserves to fail", I have expressed satisfaction at bhagat's incarceration.
    And if there are other's that commissions or courts find guilty, I will call for theirs as well.
    You can contrast this with the bjp's belligerent attitude yourself, without my having to bring it up.

    6. You will have to explain the concept of "AT THE EXPENSE OF THE MAJORITY" to me. What is it that I or IHM or @lankr1ta or anyone else has suffered, on account of focus on the underprivileged???

    I also think you need to understand Sardar Patel's views on dealing with the minorities before coming up with the same rhetorical argument on quietly accept, subsidies etc.
    Answer my first question: What has the majority suffered? Do they not get education? Jobs? Has their socio-economic status come down as compared to the underprivileged/minorities? Answer this simple set & we'll talk further.

    7. The only reason you wouldn't have said anything is because as you've admitted yourself, you're filled with admiration for my debating skills. Just as I'm filled with admiration for your generally moderate & inclusive stance.
    Despite your latest comment, I still continue to believe that you are not one sided. So for you to change tack, is a little out of character. :-)

    7.1 It's not OK to be biased. Taking a stand against an anti-national party (which you yourself said is the truth) is not the same thing as being biased. So Gandhiji's stand against Casteism was anti-Brahmin??? WHAT RUBBISH!!!

    7.2 How's it outrageous. It's less outrageous than wanting the bjp/bsp/left in power! I've given the bjp their due credit. They help the Congress get better. But their other faults call for a future change (hopefully soon) in the opposition.
    And again you're making claims without backing them up with links. HOW has the Left betrayed India at all? Note that I'm not saying "anymore than the right-wing"?
    HOW is a Communist ideology a betrayal????????????????????? What half-baked nonsense is this? Explain that statement to me please.
    If you cannot back up your claim or provide proof, please forever hold your peace on this subject. Not just here but in any group! I'm open. I'm waiting. Gimme proof & logic!

    7.3 Not mentioned here, but from our chat the other day: Being anti-bjp doesn't instantly mean leftist. The Cong., the SP, etc. are all anti-bjp, but they're NOT leftist. That's another funda you need to get straight.

    8. UCC: Is not a rubbishable idea. But like every other idea it's not perfect. Like other imperfect ideas, Capitalism, Communism etc. You will probably be surprised to find that Commie ideology is probably the most supportive of a UCC. In the hands of the bjp, the UCC is just an electoral tool. Even if they use it they will use it like they wish to use POTA in gujarat.

    9. Don't conclude until you have first thoroughly cogitated over the information you need to forage for first! Then by all means feel free to conclude.
    And AGAIN, for your benefit, I've pointed out the DIFFERENCE between Communal & a drive for Equality!!! Please get that. Or discuss it if you want to, but PLEASE don't brand like a parrot, without thinking!

    10. I don't give a rat's @$$ for the Crown Prince. He still has lots to learn. I myself see better suited people. I've never called for him to be PM. As long as Dr. Manmohan Singh is PM, we don't need anyone else to be there.
    Then there's guys like Chidambaram, Montek etc. There's Omar Abdullah who can suit the role one day. There's Sachin Pilot, Milind Deora, Jyo Scindia who're Rahul's equals.

    And anyone who gives tickets to Varun Gandhi & Vasundhara Raje BETTER NOT be talking Dynasty!!! They lose the right to point fingers instantly! Bloody Hypocrites!
    Oh, that's one more thing the Congress is not! They're brave enough to apologize for their failures. And to go back to the people & say we'll do better. And the people back them. You know why? Because they people basically trust good, educated, cultured people! THAT'S WHY!

    Bringing up arun shourie is your biggest mistake Trailblazer! arun shourie is a demented mind, so totally biased, that he authors book after book targeting either Muslims or Dalit Leaders like Dr. Ambedkar. I've authored 2 posts about him. You can search for shourie on this blog. You will find that he even takes veiled potshots at Gandhiji. So to him, The Father of The Nation & The Father of The Indian Constitution, both champions of dalit rights are less important than a pro-upper-caste Hindu stance!!! him you want as PM? Will that not be denigrating the office of PM??? It would've been better if you'd have suggested that silly, effete zardari's name for Indian PM!!! shourie... chee!

    To finish this particular comment off, I'll just say that I'll NEVER brand you as sanghi. Unless you prove yourself to be one with repeated pro-bjp comments.

    You wanna be anti-cong, do so. They deserve the feedback. But they don't deserve to be at the receiving end of propaganda. Facts are more than welcome!

    The same stance cannot be applied to the bjp, until they cut all ties with the sangh parivar & drop their hindutva agenda, & show some guts by dropping modi from all party posts until investigations are complete, etc. Right?

    If they can change that much, God knows, even I might vote for them! But not until then!


    PS: I'm GLAD you're not Hindu! Enough spoiling of the Hindu name has gone on because of the jokers in whose defence you spoke. No more sullying the good Hindu name. PLEASE.

    PPS: Thanks. Will get rid of Google Ads, as soon as I can figure out how!

  15. 1con,

    It's very difficult to maintain this argument, 1con. I will tell you a little about myself. I used to be pro-Congress till not too long ago. Until I realized that the mainstream media takes us for a ride. Then I looked at right-wing media which has a smaller voice - something like the Pioneer or Live Mint. And I then realized that they have a point. Mind you, I've never defended the BJP. I believe the BJP's attitude was one of shame during the Malegaon investigations. [Check blog for post].

    I'm just trying to get a balance. And hence this is how I will slowly and surely give you proof. But it will take me some time as I need to search out everything I've read as I've never saved or marked them as bookmarks.

    1) I request that you please send me links of your Congress posts.
    Because if I can find something like this :-
    Manmohan Singh should officially be declared a Bharat Ratna. The man has reportedly sent a strongly worded letter to the (unfit to be) Maharashtra CM, vilasrao deshmukh on his inability to control the situation in a state under his charge

    Who are you kidding, 1con? You clearly know that the Congress acted late on the MNS because it wanted to split the Marathi vote from the Shiv Sena. A cheap political move that has seen the rise of one of India's biggest internal threats, someone both of us despise. And you are praising Dr. Singh??

    2) I'm just trying to relate what Bones said with your general argument. That BJP is the only communal force in politics today. While you are keen on giving the Congress a clean chit.

    Regarding the BJP, even I dont want them to be ideological about Hindutva. I dont think that concept will keep India united. Definitely not.

    3) Please do not be averse to the "minority" thing. You say I sound like a BJP record, but dont you want both the majority and minority concepts to be eliminated and everyone understood as Indians?

    4)Surely 1con, dont. Not with Antulay. If you can stand by Antulay, then did you find sense in Hindu-Zionist conspiracy theories of Mumbai 26/11? Seriously dude! Arundhati Roy in the making, are you?

    The Congress didn't sack him because of vote bank politics. To hell with making a point. What a ridiculous argument Antulay came up with. He should have resigned. And his past is good enough to put him in prison.

    And again, our difference in ideology props up. I BELIEVE in capital punishment. Afzal Guru should be hanged? YES. Asap.

    OK, I agree the Congress is moderate. So maybe that is why they are soft on terror, are they? Do you seriously think a moderate Congress can tackle terror?

    Regarding SIMI, a little confusion in my point. SIMI had appealed for the ban and had it revoked until the Supreme Court managed a stay order, because it was the UPA that failed to provide enough evidence to keep it banned. They almost got the ban uplifted!

    4.1) I have no qualms with you about this point. All I'm trying to say is that you are pro-Congress and you should accept it. That's all. Because you are defending the Congress at every instant. Antulay? Afzal Guru? These are the Congress' failings, 1con. And you are defending them??? Only a supporter would do it.

    And now if you want to state that I'm a BJP supporter, then you should read that i deplore their actions of Malegaon and even their opportunism post Mumbai 26/11.

    4.2) Socialist? Maybe, yes. But more leaning towards a vote-bank would be appropriate when you take into account contemporary politics. But I'd rather put this in a different way - ANY ONE NOT TREATING INDIANS AS INDIANS AND INDIANS NOT PANDERING TO INDIANS AS A WHOLE IS COMMUNAL. That's my definition of communal. It is idealistic. But this is what it should be, shouldn't it? Hence the BJP is communal. And so is the Congress.

    4.3) Haha! The PM following the Party leader is discipline??? Nation's leader following the party's leader??? Seriously?

    Tomorrow, let's say Modi, as head of the BJP, is a big influence on Advani who is the PM then wouldn't you lambast them?

    5) LET's ACCEPT THAT BOTH THE BJP AND THE CONGRESS ARE RESPONSBILE FOR THE DEATHS OF THOUSANDS OF INDIANS. 1984, 2002 -> equally destructive and dangerous communal violence.

    Please dont defend the Congress here, because I find it a shame to defend the BJP. Only state governments can prevent such large-scale violence, irrespective of involvement. And they didn't. Both the mainstream parties.

    6)Reservations are no way to improve a society, 1con. Especially, caste-based. C'mon. Subsidies to Haj pilgrims are fine, but Hindus' yatras are completely on their own. Isn't this "at the expense of the majority"? Taslima Nasreen is asked to apologize by the UPA for her views while Karunanidhi's comments on Rama-Sethu are ignored completely?

    7) I'm moderate and will remain so, 1con. I used to blindly admire the Congress. Until I just peeked into the right-wing media and found a lot of injustice meted out there too.

    For the remaining points, I will be back.

    Regarding Arun shourie, all I was saying was that he is better than Rahul Gandhi in terms of intellect because if you heard his Rajya sabha speeches after Mumbai 26/11, then he certainly has something to offer in terms of fighting terror. That's all. I know his biases very well.

  16. TrailB...

    Not really. We're sharing. And we seem to be doing it without much vitriol. And I'd rather be talking to someone like you than some others, if you know what I mean... :-)

    I'd like to know a lot more about you Trailblazer, but for now here's a little snippet about me.
    I am a perennial questioner, a seeker, a sceptic. I will question every claim until I'm satisfied that it is the absolute truth. So when someone says that the mainstream media takes us for a ride, I will analyse it & upon finding that it's all rubbish, I will quickly dismiss it!

    Indian Express is mainstream media, right? They exposed Antulay's corruption, didn't they? And Dhirubhai's?

    Examples of truthful journalism exist in mainstream media. It's just that I'm not 22 & I refuse to be swung by the first piece of propaganda I come across.
    Please try & understand that the guys who first spoke to you about the mainstream media's shortcomings were in all probability right-wingers whose voice wasn't being heard. And rightly so. I'm always concerned when people demand that hitler's voice or dogse's or mulgaonkar's voice or any extremist voice is heard. That is tantamount to lending credibility to their propaganda! (PS: You may want to refer to the discussion on IHM's blog around wanting to find logic in hitler's extremist views, or good points in the bastard. I'm linking to a comment I left there. THAT is why I don't read either livemint or panchjanya or vikas! Why corrupt my mind, when I can read Gandhi and Buddha?)

    Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the media is all white. They're corrupt, but most importantly they're up for sale.
    So the HT about 20 years back used to be pro-bjp, I distincly remember. The TOI has mastered the art of appearing unbiased to the untrained eye, but they will roll wherever they see their benefit. Vineet Jain runs a money making business. He doesn't run an honest newspaper. The TOI is the most criticised newspaper in journalistic circles.
    But that doesn't mean that honest journalism doesn't exist. Newspapers that don't make a lot of money but soldier on, because of their committment to a cause, like IE or Tehelka are deserving of our patronage.
    (By the way, IE was started by a sanghi. It's just that he was possibly one of the rare unbiased ones. And I don't run the paper down because of it's origins. Puts me way above the right-wing types doesn't it? They seem to exist solely to take down one family...!)
    You may have seen me openly critique the DNA for presenting unabashed right-wing views.

    I point out all of this to illustrate that while I'm aware of the shortcomings of mainstream English media, I'm also aware that generalization is a CRIME!!! There are enough institutions & journos who are doing a fab unbiased job. Amit Varma of India Uncut for example.

    You mentioned balance. The above is what I mean by balance.

    1) I don't think I've written even one post about the Congress. You see, this isn't a pro-Congress Blog.
    It's an anti-bjp Blog. There's a difference. They're not the same thing.
    This is the same thing I was trying to explain to you earlier. You were suggesting that the opposite of pro-bjp is leftist. That's incorrect. The opposite of pro-bjp is anti-bjp! Not leftist, not pro-Congress.
    Anyway here's a link to another anti-bjp post where I've dedicated a line to the court's order against hkl bhagat.

    1.1) I was hoping you'd recognize hyperbole when you saw it. If you read the post in it's entirity, you will know that it's meant to highlight the difference between vajpayee's inaction & Dr. Singh's action. It was meant to sting the right-wingers & not guys like you!

    Also I believe that it's too far-fetched a theory to digest that Vilasrao Deshmukh would allow himself to be portrayed as the villian of the piece, just so that his party could split the Marathi vote!!! You really think he's that saintly? LOL! :-D

    The shiv sena is anyway a spent force. If anything allowing the mns leeway, would give them more voter share!!!!!! Why would the Cong.-NCP combine want that to happen?????

    I just think Deshmukh acted late, because he was either worried about a backlash or is just plain inept. I suspect it's the latter, judging by his record on Vidharba etc.

    2) Boss... I defined communal for you. I'm not keen on giving the Congress a clean chit. I'm just asking you to be accurate in your accusations. Do you disagree with the definition of communal?

    3) I do! I really do! But more than Indians as humans. So Indianness is secondary in my book to Humaneness. If upliftment of the Harijan or poor Muslim is more humane, then I vote for that!!!

    4) Am I standing by antulay??? You may want to re-read all points under # 4.
    And as I've told you before, I may not agree with Arundhati entirely, but she's head, shoulders, waist, hips, ankles & soles above the likes of our right-wing.

    We just differ here I guess. The next time someone disagrees with me in my company, I guess I'll just sack him! That should make me an extremist by disposition, and gladden the hearts of everyone. Let's see how far that general attitude gets us.
    Ditto capital punishment. Let's hang every murderer. Why show clemency to anyone?
    We don't need to progress as a race. The same barbaric principles that applied 4000 years back can still apply!

    This soft on terror tag is also political sparring. I think you forget that it was the Congress regime the finished off terrorism in Punjab. And lost a PM to that cause. And acted against terrorism in Sri Lanka. And lost another former PM to that cause.
    Soft on terror? REALLY???

    Look... don't give me this almost stuff on SIMI...!!! I only wanted to demonstrate to you that you're going primarily by hearsay & I'm driven only by fact.

    4.1) I've said this before & I'll say it again. I'm pro-moderate, pro-secular, pro-progress, pro-inclusivity. Since the Congress stands for all of this, I stand by them. If any other party can stand for all of these & do a better job, I'll stand by them!!!

    I don't think what you call faillings are failings.
    And I don't think you are a bjp-supporter. You're more anti-Cong., and that doesn't always translate into pro-bjp, does it?

    4.2) Leaning towards HOW MANY vote banks Trailblazer? If someone leans towards their own, or towards only one, maybe it's vote bank politics. If one leans towards each & every community, is that vote-bank politics???
    What a juvenile argument yaar...!

    You want to draw up a new argument, just to brand the Congress communal, be my guest! :-)
    Like I've said, Indian needs is secondary to needs of Humans. We're the human race first, then anything else!!!
    In my book. :-)

    4.3) Silly baseless allegation again. Give me proof. I didn't know you were referring to Dr. Singh.
    Are you suggesting that the Economy of the country is driven by Sonia Gandhi's decisions?

    I don't care for the mess within the bjp. I would not bring it up. I'd let them fight amongst themselves & break up into a million pieces. I would quietly celebrate. With a post on this blog, about the wine I had in celebration. :-)

    I can't understand why they're so concerned with the mess within the Congress. They should be happy! And of course, they should focus on setting their own mess right.
    No? :-)

    5) Trailblazer, now I'm beginning to get irritated.
    When have I defended the Congress???
    I've only asked you to provide me with proof of the multiple commissions you mentioned. Give me the proof. When I see it, I will agree with you.
    I've shared whatever proof I've seen uptil now, haven't I?

    Or is someone, who has the benefit of a modern education, exposure & intellect, asking me to rely purely on hearsay...?

    One very important point to think about here is: Why did the nation not erupt into riots when Mahatma Gandhi was assassinated?
    And why did it when Indira Gandhi was assassinated?
    The answers to this point will help us get a lot of answers that affect our society.
    Are you going to attempt an answer?

    6) Subsidies are given on the basis of economic status. I agree that they should be recalled. In fact Muslim groups have already called for the subsidy to be abolished. Again, I suspect the Congress' reaction is going to be measured instead of knee-jerk.

    I don't recall which views of Taslima's you're referring to here (educate me), but the mythology v/s history debate has been raging for quite some time & will rage. We're talking religious fervour versus scientific thought here, for God's sake!!!

    7) It's not as if I haven't read or heard right-wingers. I have. That's why I can see through their web of deceit, misrepresentation, propaganda etc.
    The only difference between your reading of them & mine is that I can see through their machinations. Their points, like I said earlier, are targeted against one party, one family & it's supporters (whether they're scholars, established historians etc. doesn't count at all!). They just want political power so that they can push their hindutva agenda home. They want a nazi India & they will resort to every trick in the book to try & get there.
    And this is what people like you & I should be standing up against, not defending!

    As for shourie, I request you to go back to the link to IHM's post & read my comment. I wouldn't have minded if you'd have named vajpayee or sudheendra kulkarni, but looking for good in a man not only totally biased, but unqualified to comment on defence is a bit too much. Was he a defence journalist? Did he study "defence" as his major? Was he defence minister? No.
    Plus his below the belt, unparlimentary comments like "stop running to mummy & aunty" basically just show his absolute lack of class. I'm glad he made those comments. So that people can recognize the low-life that he is.

    When Dr. Singh's brand of international pressure & diplomacy yields results, will you join me in spitting on shourie's face?

    PS: When we're done with this argument, I'd like to initiate a discussion with you on the UCC.

  17. Trailblazer,

    While I wait for you to come back on the other points I'd raised (such as whether you desire the TOUGH Mrs. Indira Gandhi, or the Moderate Dr. Manmohan Singh...), I'd like to make a few additional points:

    a) Haj subsidies:
    - Does it never occur to anyone that the Haj is an overseas trip & may require much more expense than a local trip within India? Therefore the subsidy?
    - Does it never occur to anyone that post-partition, Patel & Nehru made it a point to make "minorities" feel secure, wanted & their customs & way of life respected. So that they would feel at home in India. So that we could demonstrate to pakistan that they were WRONG!!!
    - Does it never occur to anyone that certain minorities in our country have remained economically, educationally & socially backward? And that a Government that aspires to provide "Good Governance" must work for their upliftment? Until they can stand better on their own feet & say, "We don't want the subsidy anymore, thanks for the help"...?

    - Do people never ask themselves why when there is a subsidy being offered to only one community, is it being euphemistically referred to as "minority appeasement"? There is not subsidy being offered to Christians, is there? Come out with it and call it "Muslim" instead of "Minority"! Or will that tear the mask from their faces? Show them as anti-Muslim? Why don't people ask themselves these questions, before opening their mouths...?
    - Do people never ask themselves why there is only one group calling against this subsidy??? Why are they the only ones who have a problem with it? Does it all tie in to the first point I made around ideology?

    b) UCC:
    To me, this essentially means things like:
    - No differentiation between men & women. Not in salary structures, not in the amount of leave being offered during maternity/paternity? Can we work towards that?
    - No special protection for our political leaders or office holders. There should be equal protection available to all humans in India. Even if there is risk to political or official lives. We have to be uniform.
    I wonder how many politicians will agree to this...?
    Will you? Do you have any views on the subject?

  18. Trailblazer,

    Reproducing here as best as I can (with blogging platform limitations), as the discussion may be more pertinent here than anywhere else.

    I've attempted to reply in italics, positioned under your points:

    On 20 January, 2009 01:08, Trailblazer said...

    Okay, 1con. Keep reading:-


    Thanks. I went thru about half of the rather lengthy, but well written post. Based on what I've seen, I will still say that Teesta is being examined threadbare because of her being one of the lone remaining voices against hindtuva. I only wish you would accord her arguments the same respect as you accord those mint jokers...
    (You will note that I refrain from presenting links to blogs or openly biased sites as proof. I prefer mainstream media like the Indian Express.)

    Tavleen Singh (Indian Express)

    Rather outdated article wouldn't you say? Not to mention terribly lopsided? She writes in 2004 that hindutva is dead, when 2002 had just happened & 2007 hadn't! And she has developed as dubious a reputation as you are trying to pin on Teesta for being one sided.
    May I present 2 links:
    This one is their response to Tavleen Singh's tirade
    This will lower your respect for such a prominent journalist, whose job it is, I believe, to rid us of prejudice.


    Francois Gautier

    Offstumped on a petition proposed by Teesta

    I refuse to even acknowledge people with documented bias like gautier & offstumped. Please Trailblazer, I expect more from you. You expect very little from me I presume...

    And I'm no Teesta, mate. Teesta is that sort of a person who will never improve Hindu-Muslim harmony. She will keep reminding Muslims that Hindus are evil and hence the divide remains.
    Teesta Setalvad was born to Hindu, Gujarati parents & was raised a Hindu!!! HOW can she ever claim that "Hindus are evil", as you childishly suggest???

    I just dont understand why dont you look at this from two sides. You are saying you are not biased, but why always the BJP mate?

    I've outlined the answer to this question in my post above in great detail. It should be obvious to anyone. It is to you too. Why you are in denial at this moment, I do not understand.

    This is called communal socialism. The vested interests of one community are picked up and consistently and compulsively blown out of proportion.

    I've answered that here. Don't care to go into it again.

    If the BJP is evil, then so are these leftist intellectuals in disguise of human rights activists. Because they are on the other extreme of the centrist-ness that India so desperately needs.

    Just by your saying so? Why don't you back up your claim with proof? The left's ideology is primarily socio-economic, not religious!

    I dont think I will continue the debate any longer as there is clearly a big, big difference between us.

    THAT is your call. I expect a lot out of an intelligent, unbiased human being like you. I felt that you were being misled by right-wing propaganda, so I did my best to show you the true picture. Not that you can't see it for yourself. You can, and I'm confident you soon will. But to debate or not is your call. It's been a pleasure Trailblazer.

  19. PS: Trailblazer...

    Have you ever readCommunalism Combat, or been to

    I've read a few articles in only one copy of the mag & found it very balanced. They do their utmost to expose every incident of communalism, irrespective of the community of the member it emnates from.


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